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**GHOST** · 10-19-2016, 11:16 AM

Two very different products. If I had to compare L2K v1 with an XS product it would be Evolve. However my experience with L2K was a good few years ago before all the formulation issues, so what it's like now I have no idea.

**knowledgeispower** · 10-19-2016, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by GHOST

Two very different products. If I had to compare L2K v1 with an XS product it would be Evolve. However my experience with L2K was a good few years ago before all the formulation issues, so what it's like now I have no idea.

That's the thing...I'm very curious as to why. Just for the sake of science and understanding mones. Obviously each product should be treated on its own, but when two products have a 90% overlap in mones but have vastly different reports and effects I get curious...Obviously concentration is huge (maybe just 5 mcg of eNONE/spray in Ascend vs maybe 10-20 in L2K) but still...

**knowledgeispower** · 10-19-2016, 11:21 AM

To make it easier to compare:
Ascend: eNONE eRONE aNONE DIENONE A-eNol B-eNol DHEAS Allo-THDOC Copulins
---L2K: eNONE --------- aNONE DIENONE A-eNol B-eNol DHEAS B-aNol eRONE-sulfate

**Xcc** · 10-19-2016, 12:58 PM

knowledgeispower I've not used Alpha Dreams products. Although I might be aware of similarities in ingredients, there is another factor. Alpha Dreams products I think use silicone type compounds for diffusion. Kudos to them for that because I think it's creative. However, I dislike silicone.

The other thing we don't know is the amounts of each. Also we don't know if the first listed ingredient is the most plentiful.

Although on the surface it looks like they should be similar, from what I've read the effects are different.

**knowledgeispower** · 10-19-2016, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by Xcc

knowledgeispower I've not used Alpha Dreams products. Although I might be aware of similarities in ingredients, there is another factor. Alpha Dreams products I think use silicone type compounds for diffusion. Kudos to them for that because I think it's creative. However, I dislike silicone.

The other thing we don't know is the amounts of each. Also we don't know if the first listed ingredient is the most plentiful.

Although on the surface it looks like they should be similar, from what I've read the effects are different.

Yeah that's precisely why I'm asking. It could be as simple as concentration. For example L2K is supposed to give an alpha sexual vibe while ascend doesent have as much sexual tension. Would it be as simple as mixing taboo and ascend? Anyways just food for thought. You will never 100% replicate another companies formula, but it's fun to experiment with different things and get ideas based on a formula the other company uses.

**GHOST** · 10-19-2016, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by knowledgeispower

when two products have a 90% overlap

You cant really say 90% without knowing what the other molecules are in each product that aren't listed.

**ShadowXAlpha** · 10-19-2016, 02:22 PM

And, just to pipe up here, considering i planted the "seed" lol... 90% overlap, is it really 90% overlap, if the quantities are drastically different? At this point, for sake of argument, and discussion (which is just plain fun...) Wouldnt this be like comparing a Ford Fusion, with a Volkswagen GTI. I mean, come on, they are 90% the same!

I could be going the wrong way with this, but thats how my brain looks at it... lol Feel free to correct me if im wrong, i like the feedback.

**theLaw** · 10-19-2016, 02:39 PM

Unfortunately, LIIK must be thrown out on a technicality, so comparing them is a mute point.

Alpha dream changed the formula without notifying their customers, and the new mix has not stood up against the earlier version.

Just one of many issue within the company itself..........RIP AD.

RIP : A314, LIIK, AM, MAG

**knowledgeispower** · 10-19-2016, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by ShadowXAlpha

And, just to pipe up here, considering i planted the "seed" lol... 90% overlap, is it really 90% overlap, if the quantities are drastically different? At this point, for sake of argument, and discussion (which is just plain fun...) Wouldnt this be like comparing a Ford Fusion, with a Volkswagen GTI. I mean, come on, they are 90% the same!

I could be going the wrong way with this, but thats how my brain looks at it... lol Feel free to correct me if im wrong, i like the feedback.

No this is a very good point actually, you're right. However you have to understand, I look at pheromones from a scientific perspective. I am currently finishing my last year of a doctoral in Neuroscience, and I'm not trying to flash any fancy degrees or anything just trying to establish credibility for the things I say.

First of all this will be a long post and I am going to split it into two posts so bear with me.

One thing very important to realize, is concentration, while important, may not be as important as we believe. The science behind pheromones is in its infancy, and the only thing we know about pheromones from a scientific perspective is women who smell mones can rate men as attractive, and have behavioral changes as seen by fMRI, etc. However no one as far as I am aware has ever done any dose-response curve type studies where different mone concentrations were tested. Everything we have is anecdotal from self-reports.

Now here's the thing, I'm not suggesting those reports are wrong. I'm just challenging that we have no proof or evidence that the mone concentration is super relevant. Of course there are other factors such as diffusion and carrier mechanisms which can slow or speed (essentially increasing or decreasing the effective concentration of the mones). For example if you spray on 5 mcg of eNONE, the amount diffusing in the air is alot less than that (obviously, or else the eNONE would be completely gone from your skin within seconds). Adding oil vs alcohol vs silicone, etc, and SteveO's Advanced Diffusion Tech blend etc will alter the effective concentration of your mone cloud.

So now here's the thing. If you active 1 neuronal pathway in your olfactory bulb, would a higher concentration of the same mone change how the neuron is activated? We don't know the answer to that as no studies have tested that. All we know is anecdotal reports. Now one pheromone that has been self-reported to be very concentration dependent is eNONE. We have thousands of reports about eNONE aggression and such. But we can't assume the same for every mone, and we don't really know how ratios affect the perception of mones.

Anyways, back to my concentration example. If you eat a teaspoon of sugar vs a tablespoon of sugar, will it taste any sweeter to you? No, because you have effectively activated all your sweet receptors with a teaspoon. The rest will be wasted (it might make you gag but that's more related to the volume than the taste). So why would mones be different? If you smell someone's cologne from 2 feet away vs from 1 inch away, it still smells strongly right? It might be a tad stronger 1 inch away, but the scent is not altered. So I pose this question: why do we think pheromones act in a different manner?

This is why I think SteveO's blends work so well. They are strong and because they are so strong they work because you can be sure anyone in your vicinity is "smelling them". You can't say the same for other products. 15 mcg of an AD product is not like 200 mcg of a PXS product. Now here's the thing...maybe 15 mcg of an AD product is sufficient to cause an effect, and maybe the excess we are spraying with PXS is a waste...we don't know the answer to these questions, and self-reports only tell us so little.

I always talk about placebo effects, because they are strong and real. There are so many things that take off in the pheromone community because a few people report them and then people begin believing this is what happens when you do x,y,z without testing themselves. House of Pheromones has a good explanation of this:
http://houseofpheromones.com/pherotr...romone-forums/

" And lastly, one other thing that concerns me is the “bandwagon” mentality that some people have when it comes to pheromones (and not just pheromone forums).

DiscoverXS and Pherotruth are relatively small, but I have seen it in a few instances.

Basically what happens is that someone posts a discovery (whether good or bad), and then suddenly everyone else starts complaining about the same thing when there were no issues before.

This is called “confirmation bias”, where people start to believe what they THINK is true (based on what they’ve been told by someone else).

And with pheromones, this can be especially dangerous because of several reasons:

Pheromones are very subjective as it is. Your personality, how you look, how you talk, walk, and behave means everyone is going to have slightly different experiences with the same products. For example, I know that Voodoo works fantastically well for me, as well as many people who have bought the product. When it first came out, people were befuddled about its effects… they couldn’t figure it out, and immediately labelled it as a dud. I myself had some trouble figuring it out. BUT, many people simply took other peoples word for it, and also started claiming that the product was ineffective. Until a few people (including myself) reviewed it and explained its purpose. Suddenly, the product boomed in popularity. This is a classic “bandwagon” effect.

Too many preconceived notions about products means more bias. What I mean is that Pherotruth members (I am still currently a member), have noticed that many people start posting things before they’ve even tried a product. They read what another member may have said, and then start saying things as a matter of fact. Same goes for people who actually put in the time to test products who have their research taken and repeated elsewhere, be that another post, another forum, another website with no credits. I haven’t seen this on DiscoverXS, because its still small and I haven’t ever been active there – hope to be soon though.

Bias of certain products or vendors based on other peoples experiences (this can also cause placebo)… I’ve seen many posts where something is totally inaccurate, but many people seem to start believing certain things about a product that may or may not be true. I saw this when people started saying L2K + Glace (or Wolf I think) was attracting… trannies? I have never experienced this, but for some silly reason this idea seems to have taken off. For the record, I tested this after someone asked about it and found no such thing. This is what I mean with placebo and bias."

My point is we don't really know a lot of things we think we do. A1 is a good example. There is no know OD for A1 that I am aware of. You can wear 50 mcg or 200 mcg and the effects pretty much plateau. We can't say this for everything, but there is evidence such as this (again relying on self-reports) that you can saturate someones olfactory receptors after a certain point and not have any effects above and beyond that dose.

This is an open discussion, and until someone does the science behind it, we can't really say that product x is different than product y only because of the concentration of the mones they use (although the ratios or rather the combination of the mones could be an important factor)

**knowledgeispower** · 10-19-2016, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by theLaw

Unfortunately, LIIK must be thrown out on a technicality, so comparing them is a mute point.

Alpha dream changed the formula without notifying their customers, and the new mix has not stood up against the earlier version.

Just one of many issue within the company itself..........RIP AD.

RIP : A314, LIIK, AM, MAG

Ah ok this makes sense. Is that why he has V1 and V2? Or are they both post-alteration?

**knowledgeispower** · 10-19-2016, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by GHOST

You cant really say 90% without knowing what the other molecules are in each product that aren't listed.

True, but again, I am one of those who believe the vast majority of pheromone brands lie through their teeth about this to stay competitive. "Believing" they have a secret molecule goes a long way to making sure they retain customers than in reality doing so. Not saying they are lying, and I am sure both PXS and LAL and Alpha Dreams etc etc have secret undisclosed molecules, but my point is its most of the time a marketing gimmick to keep you guessing. The way they are blended is a much more important trade secret in my opinion, and something SteveO has mastered...

**ShadowXAlpha** · 10-19-2016, 04:07 PM

Fantastic thought invoking information knowledgeispower Awesome on your coursework btw. I also wasn't necessarily arguing against you either... just bringing up a dumbed
down idea to discussion. :-)

**knowledgeispower** · 10-19-2016, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by ShadowXAlpha

Fantastic thought invoking information knowledgeispower Awesome on your coursework btw. I also wasn't necessarily arguing against you either... just bringing up a dumbed
down idea to discussion. :-)

Oh no problem honestly I want people to argue lol. We shouldn't all agree and I can't claim to have the right answers either. We would be a boring bunch if we agreed on everything...

No hard feelings I hope you didn't take my response in a negative way. I'm just trying to be thorough with my answer

**Xcc** · 10-19-2016, 09:49 PM

knowledgeispower I always appreciate your depth of thought and research! Thank you!

**YourAGreatGuy** · 10-25-2016, 01:10 AM

I have tested both versions of L2K. In my humble opinion they are more effective then any other pheromone I have tested. My only concern was with repeated applications it may have caused me to feel depressed. So I stopped using L2K and left it gather dust. Another thing is the vendor is extremely pricey I get the feeling you pay more for the bottle then then pheromone.

**knowledgeispower** · 10-25-2016, 06:59 AM

Originally posted by YourAGreatGuy

I have tested both versions of L2K. In my humble opinion they are more effective then any other pheromone I have tested. My only concern was with repeated applications it may have caused me to feel depressed. So I stopped using L2K and left it gather dust. Another thing is the vendor is extremely pricey I get the feeling you pay more for the bottle then then pheromone.

Interesting thanks for sharing. Maybe L2K has more dienone than other products which may be why it caused the depression. SteveO does a good job buffering dienone for men, although I suspect the Cops found in Ascend help negate any dienone negative effects

**theLaw** · 10-25-2016, 07:39 AM

Just an update on the latest LIIK reviews from PT:

It appears that AD has fixed the problem with the new version of AM/LIIK, and the product now works as advertised. Most new users reported very impressive results, if not identical results to the original.

Personally, I lost trust in AD long ago, but credit to them for apparently fixing this issue.

One final note, LIIK and AM are unlike any other mix on the market specifically in regards to status based attraction. For any new users looking to purchase this mix, be sure to have your life in order to present your best self. With LIIK.......you're a shiny new Rolex.........but without the proper congruent image/behavior........your just a fake Rolex.........and she'll spot you a mile away.

Cheers!

**YourAGreatGuy** · 10-25-2016, 08:02 AM

Another weird thing with L2K. Some men commented that they could smell cleaning fluid in the bar when they were in my vicinity. However I got lots of great comments from the women who loved the smell of it.

**elvin.tan77** · 10-27-2016, 08:14 PM

Hey knowledgeispower, I think you're looking at it too narrowly. I'm not a scientist or a science graduate but if you're using Sugar as a comparison, it would be like using Single Pheromone. Perhaps, you should look at it like baking or music? 1 Note or Ingredient = 1 specific pheromone. How each is mixed or played will have different effect. Hope you get what I mean.

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L2K vs...Ascend?

L2K vs...Ascend?

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