Challenging and testing conventional pheromone wisdom

[Xcc]

I want us to start listing conventional pheromone wisdom because I'm tired of seeing notions that "everyone" seems to accept but where is the evidence?

knowledgeispower you inspired this.

Here are some:

1) You can't wear copulins with A1 (I'm not so sure because I've broken this rule and the women didn't run away or give me negative hits)

2) Young women are repelled by androstenone (I was just talking with a woman who is 22 or 23 wearing a high androstenone product and I had to end the conversation because she wouldn't let me go and kept standing closer to me)

3) Asians dislike high amounts of androstenone (Don't know. I'm not around many Asians)

4) Don't wear copulins if you are in a relationship because your gf or wife or significant other or etc. will think you are cheating ( knowledgeispower may have disproved that one)

You know what I'm getting at.

Let's start listing them and testing them because I know some of these may not be true.

Tenerife Guy you want to join?

Who else wants in on this?

List those truism that people say and let's find a way to test them.

[knowledgeispower]

Thank you for doing this! I think we do definitely need more controversial testing. Sometimes they help clear up things and sometimes you'd be surprised to what you learn. I myself have learned a lot by wearing copulins lately when I have been afraid of them for many many years.

I'll comment on the ones you listed:

1. I've been wearing copulins with A1 every day now, with essentially my Ascend + Xist + Taboo + Cohesion mix. I've had nothing but good hits from the wife and others on campus. I believe this idea came about because A1 is supposed to be "romantic" while cops are supposed to be "slutty". But the fact is if you are in a romantic relationship you will have sex and you will end up with Cops. So I don't find it accurate to say that by having one you can't have the other. I don't think they oppose but rather compliment each other. A1 says you're a sensible man while cops say you're desirable by others. Not conflicting? You judge...

2. I think the word "young women" is thrown out a lot without context. When I think young women I think under 18. Basically the high school crowd. 18-21 age range I would say are intimidated by a lot of eNONE but aren't repelled by it. 21+ I have not really noticed have a big deal with too much eNONE, but this can vary based on your own vibe, how well buffered it is, and their own sexual maturity. You have to understand that eNONE causes arousal but not attraction. For younger women (especially under age), arousal is scary if the guy is not attracting (he comes off as a creep). Now obviously I'm saying this especially for the high-school men who wear mones, I'm not advocating people wear mones to attract girls under 18. But when I was in high school, too much unbuffered eNONE scared away the women.

So long story short, I would not define 21+ as eNONE sensitive, but I would say that 25-30+ women are much more receptive to eNONE, while the 21-25 age group tends to not mind eNONE as long as you are attractive in other ways (as in you're buffering the eNONE with other attractive mones). MILF's on the other hand can't get enough of eNONE....

3. This is one I've never experienced personally. I went to a college with a lot of Asians, but I feel that this mainly has to do with cultural customs. Because eNONE causes arousal, if a girl is culturally brought up to repress sexual desire, she will be turned off by eNONE. Asians that have grown up in a western environment do not have a repulsion to eNONE in my experience.

4. This one for me has not had any problem. Been wearing cops around my wife nearly a month now and no problems whatsoever...and if you read my journal you know my first time wearing cops around my wife she was very very attracted. That being said, Ascend has very very little cops. I haven't tried a high-dose of cops yet. I ordered some Desire Me oil for men today and will test that soon to see if a higher dose of cops will harm or help...only one way to find out! That being said, I also don't stay out late, etc. If I did, and there was room for suspicion, cops "may" cause a problem. But as others have said, if you have a normal sex life with your spouse, cops will likely not be an issue. But if you come home late every night and rarely have sex with your wife, the cops could be perceived as having an affair. So context is important here.

[Xcc]

knowledgeispower Thank you for writing about this so thoroughly! And if you make a mistake with your wife in wearing copulins, then XiSt to the rescue.

Thank you for advocating the idea of arousal versus attraction. I wish more men would get this.

Until you tested this, #4 worried me! Now I'm more flexible about this. You're a pioneer, as far as I'm concerned.

What other "conventional wisdom" or controversial topics about pheromones should we challenge or test?

[knowledgeispower]

Some things we need to challenge or test:

1. Can mone build up really happen? My suggestion is someone tests this by spraying something with an obvious result every day, goes about their normal day, showers but does not scrub them off, not even soap. My hypothesis is just by regular sweat + daily cell renewal + water the mones should be nullified by the next day. So no soap, no scrubbing, just apply, shower at night, rinse and repeat next day for a week. But it would have to be something that would gradually have an increased effect (like a social mone like a-nol or an aggressive mone like eNONE). Since people say eNONE is so sticky, it might be the better one to test. Spray 5 mcg of eNONE per day and see if it builds up. 5 mcg won't cause aggression, but if it really builds up at the end of a week it should cause major problems! I would not test this with oils however because I believe oils are much easier to build up and won't get us a straight answer.

[Xcc]

How about this...

I've never ordered from AD, but they seem to like neroli. Now somewhere I thought I saw that someone at AD seemed to think neroli was one of the best diffusants. Is this true? How did this idea come about, if I understand it correctly?

[Xcc]

Another one, does A-nol degrade into Enone?

[Catlord17]

Some things we need to challenge or test:

1. Can mone build up really happen? My suggestion is someone tests this by spraying something with an obvious result every day, goes about their normal day, showers but does not scrub them off, not even soap. My hypothesis is just by regular sweat + daily cell renewal + water the mones should be nullified by the next day. So no soap, no scrubbing, just apply, shower at night, rinse and repeat next day for a week. But it would have to be something that would gradually have an increased effect (like a social mone like a-nol or an aggressive mone like eNONE). Since people say eNONE is so sticky, it might be the better one to test. Spray 5 mcg of eNONE per day and see if it builds up. 5 mcg won't cause aggression, but if it really builds up at the end of a week it should cause major problems! I would not test this with oils however because I believe oils are much easier to build up and won't get us a straight answer.

I am extremely sensitive to unbuffered eNONE. As little as 2.5 MCG is enough to set me off in a rage. I actually lost a girlfriend the first time I tested it at that level unbuffered because we had a HUGE blow out fight.

It took me time and testing to figure out what cause it, but by then it was too late. I spent a lot of time exploring eNONE, and I can say with absolute certainty that it does build up over time if you apply daily without removing it. It's even worse on clothes than on skin, too. This is the only pheromone I can remember enough of my experiences with to confidently give such an account, and only because unbuffered eNONE turns me into a madman.... literally hair-trigger mad as hell for no good reason.

[Catlord17]

How about this...

I've never ordered from AD, but they seem to like neroli. Now somewhere I thought I saw that someone at AD seemed to think neroli was one of the best diffusants. Is this true? How did this idea come about, if I understand it correctly?

I work with real neroli of various types as a student of perfumery. I can tell you, what AD uses is not neroli. Not only does it smell different, but it lasts much, much longer than actual neroli. Even the best neroli I can get, fixed as heavily as I dare and worn at an almost too strong 10% is virtually gone in 20 to 30 minutes.

Whatever they're using is a base note, as it lasts more than 8 hours on skin. Neroli is almost always classified as a top note, and even the best examples, such as the one I give above for Egyptian Neroli, are considered fleeting middle notes at best.

Neroli is very diffusive because it is typically a top note... smaller molecules. Any citrus oil or oil from a citrus plant will be highly diffusive, but that's why it doesn't last long, too.

[Tenerife Guy]

"Certain products work better for certain age groups (targets)?"

Perhaps, but more relevant is the fact that DNA are distributed into types. So, if your target has a DNA of XYZ type, and you also have a DNA type of XYZ, she will be subconsciously repulsed by your pheromone signature (nature's way to avoid in-breeding). Whereas if your DNA was type ZXX, your pheromone signature would be attractive to her.

With so many variables out there, isn't it more probable that an 18 year old might be repulsed by a product, not because it contains a lot of eNone, for example, but rather that there is something in that mix which is saying "I'm too close to your own DNA, so you must reject me"? If that product was consistently repulsing 18 year olds, then yes, it could be the eNone. But if it was repulsing a cross section of age groups, and attracting a cross section of age groups, then we could conclude the contrary.

I'm currently suspecting that this is the case with Evolve. One of my FFWB gets turned on by Evolve (although she hates the stink). Another FFWB, same age and race, can't be around me when I wear it, and avoids me for weeks after.

This is why the absolute lack of controlled testing en-masse within the pheromone sector leaves us huge gaps (which tend to be filled by guesswork, speculation and 3rd party reporting).

[knowledgeispower]

I am extremely sensitive to unbuffered eNONE. As little as 2.5 MCG is enough to set me off in a rage. I actually lost a girlfriend the first time I tested it at that level unbuffered because we had a HUGE blow out fight.

It took me time and testing to figure out what cause it, but by then it was too late. I spent a lot of time exploring eNONE, and I can say with absolute certainty that it does build up over time if you apply daily without removing it. It's even worse on clothes than on skin, too. This is the only pheromone I can remember enough of my experiences with to confidently give such an account, and only because unbuffered eNONE turns me into a madman.... literally hair-trigger mad as hell for no good reason.

Thanks for sharing, first-hand reports like this are important.

One that note, do you mind commenting on a few posts I made related to this topic in this thread? Primarily these:

https://discoverxs.com/forum/pheromonexs-retail-products/unisexy/37941-is-there-a-way-to-get-to-get-rid-of-cover-natural-pheromones?p=40633#post40633

https://discoverxs.com/forum/pheromonexs-retail-products/unisexy/37941-is-there-a-way-to-get-to-get-rid-of-cover-natural-pheromones?p=40693#post40693

I'm 100% open to the idea that mones can build up, I made a conciliatory comment about this in the same thread:

https://discoverxs.com/forum/pheromonexs-retail-products/unisexy/37941-is-there-a-way-to-get-to-get-rid-of-cover-natural-pheromones?p=40709#post40709

I still would like to theorize about how this may occur. If we can get a better idea to why they build up (if they really do) we may be able to figure out how to properly remove them rather than just drench our body with witch hazel...

[knowledgeispower]

I work with real neroli of various types as a student of perfumery. I can tell you, what AD uses is not neroli. Not only does it smell different, but it lasts much, much longer than actual neroli. Even the best neroli I can get, fixed as heavily as I dare and worn at an almost too strong 10% is virtually gone in 20 to 30 minutes.

Whatever they're using is a base note, as it lasts more than 8 hours on skin. Neroli is almost always classified as a top note, and even the best examples, such as the one I give above for Egyptian Neroli, are considered fleeting middle notes at best.

Neroli is very diffusive because it is typically a top note... smaller molecules. Any citrus oil or oil from a citrus plant will be highly diffusive, but that's why it doesn't last long, too.

AD has been found to include plant sterols in their mixes to "mask" their mones. I believe several people have tried to reverse engineer their putatives including A314 by running them through a mass spectrometer (I got the idea to do this recently as I have access to one at work) but basically they found that the plant sterols were infused into their blends at such a high concentration there is no scientific way to reverse engineer their mones as their mones would appear as just noise given the high concentration of plant sterols. I wonder if that if anything has to do with why their Neroli scent really isn't Neroli...

See this:

http://pherotruth.com/Thread-The-Put...73416#pid73416

Xcc you might find this one interesting as well

[knowledgeispower]

Another one, does A-nol degrade into Enone?

This is an important one that has been around for a long time. I don't know scientifically how this works, but I believe XSteveO himself explained this once. If I remember correctly, it has something to do with how bacterial break down A-nol rendering it eNONE. But I also believe XSteveO had something in his tempering/diffusion tech to prevent this, but I don't remember with 100% certainty.

[knowledgeispower]

"Certain products work better for certain age groups (targets)?"

Perhaps, but more relevant is the fact that DNA are distributed into types. So, if your target has a DNA of XYZ type, and you also have a DNA type of XYZ, she will be subconsciously repulsed by your pheromone signature (nature's way to avoid in-breeding). Whereas if your DNA was type ZXX, your pheromone signature would be attractive to her.

With so many variables out there, isn't it more probable that an 18 year old might be repulsed by a product, not because it contains a lot of eNone, for example, but rather that there is something in that mix which is saying "I'm too close to your own DNA, so you must reject me"? If that product was consistently repulsing 18 year olds, then yes, it could be the eNone. But if it was repulsing a cross section of age groups, and attracting a cross section of age groups, then we could conclude the contrary.

I'm currently suspecting that this is the case with Evolve. One of my FFWB gets turned on by Evolve (although she hates the stink). Another FFWB, same age and race, can't be around me when I wear it, and avoids me for weeks after.

This is why the absolute lack of controlled testing en-masse within the pheromone sector leaves us huge gaps (which tend to be filled by guesswork, speculation and 3rd party reporting).

I think this is a big one, thanks for bringing this up. There have been studies showing how women who go on the pill sometimes end up finding their spouse unattractive all of a sudden. See this:

http://www.medicaldaily.com/birth-co...ly-date-311164

http://time.com/3596014/attraction-sex-birth-control/

I don't like citing non-journal sources but their source comes from two publications one in PNAS and the other in Proc. R. Soc. in 2011 and 2014, I've read the actual publications at one point.



I'm not sure how far the research into this has gone, but their may be something I believe changing epi-genetically in the DNA in response to contraceptives that can alter who a woman finds attractive. This may have consequences for relationships, but more importantly, may explain why certain pheromones may not mesh with all people, especially if there is a DNA incompatibility.

"A 2008 paper published in The Proceedings of the Royal Society BScientific American hypothesized that while non-pregnant women would be more attracted to genetically dissimilar men (to avoid the possibility of incest and maximize immunity of their offspring,) women on the Pill may be more drawn to genetically similar men because pregnant women seek out family members."

[Xcc]

Another challenge and controversy:

Can pheromones over ride the Major Histocompatibility Complex factor bias? In other words, can pheromones make someone so attractive, the MHC factor will be irrelevant?

It could solve the issue about spouses being married and going on or off the pill, and having their attraction change for the worse.

It also might be related to why some women find a man appealing and others don't and there's just no logical explanation.

Tenerife Guy and knowledgeispower This could be related to the topics you brought up.

[knowledgeispower]

Another challenge and controversy:

Can pheromones over ride the Major Histocompatibility Complex factor bias? In other words, can pheromones make someone so attractive, the MHC factor will be irrelevant?

It could solve the issue about spouses being married and going on or off the pill, and having their attraction change for the worse.

It also might be related to why some women find a man appealing and others don't and there's just no logical explanation.

Tenerife Guy and knowledgeispower This could be related to the topics you brought up.

Ah yes! Thank you for reminding me. I believe studies have shown that contraceptives have been found to affect the MHC factor which is the explanation for the loss or gain of attractiveness (in the above study I quoted). This I believe may have an important role in how and if mones work...it is a good question that I do not think has been studied at all...overriding MHC would be a great thing if mones really could do that A hunch of mine says they do, but this is simply because I think mones may bias the MHC factor by masking your own scent...ideally the "pure" mones would be compatible with all MHC but we don't know that for sure

[knowledgeispower]

Xcc see these:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7630893

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11799397

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15777804

[knowledgeispower]

Also this one:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14624846

http://ac.els-cdn.com/S0166223603003357/1-s2.0-S0166223603003357-main.pdf?_tid=47117960-8bd2-11e6-afad-00000aab0f6c&acdnat=1475764773_4afcbbdf2a37e11b47f862f00b4e126d

MHC molecules in the vomeronasal organ: contributors to pheromonal discrimination?

"The vomeronasal organ of the accessory olfactory system detects pheromones in several vertebrate species. Recent studies of vomeronasal sensory neurons have shown that they express MHC molecules, which in the immune system help to discriminate self antigens from non-self antigens. These new findings, along with past research demonstrating MHC-based olfactory discrimination, suggest the exciting possibility thatMHC molecules together with vomeronasal G-protein-coupled receptors play a role in distinguishing related individuals from unrelated ones based on pheromonal cues.

[knowledgeispower]

Sorry for the spam but a lot on this subject!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16698261

http://ac.els-cdn.com/S0959438806000...402ae9a4d17351

MHC homologs in the nervous system--they haven't lost their groove.

"Major histocompatibility complex (MHC) molecules have been implicated in a number of non-immune roles in the central nervous system, particularly in synaptic development and plasticity. The discovery of M10 (50% sequence identity to classical MHC molecules) proteins expressed in the vomeronasal organ adds to the list of non-traditional roles of MHC homologs. M10 molecules associate with the V2R class of vomeronasal receptors, a family of G-protein coupled receptors thought to function as pheromone receptors. Recent studies showing that classical MHC-binding peptides activate V2R-expressing neurons offer tempting clues that M10s might participate directly in the recognition of pheromone ligands, but M10 proteins do not bind to these peptides with significant affinity. Instead of presenting MHC-binding peptides, M10s might function as molecular chaperones to V2R receptors or more generally as modulators of neuronal function, as demonstrated elsewhere in the brain for classical MHC molecules."

Something interesting from that publication:
"It was recently reported that peptides that activate neurons within the vomeronasal organ [41 ] also activate subsets of neurons within the main olfactory epithelium [61]. This activity is dependent on the cyclic nucleotidegated channel gene CNGA2 and increases the preference of male mice toward urine samples containing these peptides. Taken together, these results suggest redundant yet distinct mechanisms for MHC-peptide detection within the main and accessory olfactory systems of mice."

[Xcc]

I work with real neroli of various types as a student of perfumery. I can tell you, what AD uses is not neroli. Not only does it smell different, but it lasts much, much longer than actual neroli. Even the best neroli I can get, fixed as heavily as I dare and worn at an almost too strong 10% is virtually gone in 20 to 30 minutes.

Whatever they're using is a base note, as it lasts more than 8 hours on skin. Neroli is almost always classified as a top note, and even the best examples, such as the one I give above for Egyptian Neroli, are considered fleeting middle notes at best.

Neroli is very diffusive because it is typically a top note... smaller molecules. Any citrus oil or oil from a citrus plant will be highly diffusive, but that's why it doesn't last long, too.

Catlord17 How fascinating and educational!

Now I was looking at petitgrain as a substitute for neroli. What thoughts do you have on petitgrain?

[Catlord17]

Catlord17 How fascinating and educational!

Now I was looking at petitgrain as a substitute for neroli. What thoughts do you have on petitgrain?

Petitgrain is a name given to a large group of oils extracted, variously, from the oils of the leaves, twigs, small unripe fruits (thus the name petit grain, or small stone, which originally was the sole source of this oil) and sometimes even the flowers of the tree in question

I have in my possession, petitgrain bigarade, Paraguayan petitgrain, lime petitgrain and I believe lemon petitgrain. There is also mandarin petitgrain, grapefruit petitgrain (differing by fruit type as well), petitgrain from various types of orange trees other than the bigarade, which if memory serves comes from the bitter orange tree which also yields true neroli and orange blossom absolute), and I have also seen petitgrain from tangerine, citron, and tangelo trees on rare occasions.

I believe the one most used in perfumery is petitgrain bigarade. If you narrow your choices down to just that one, and you find a good supplier thereof, it does not smell anything like neroli. It is citrus, and reminiscent thereby, but only thereby. Petitgrain bigarade (like all petitgrains I have smelled) are exceptionally green in scent, moreso than anything else they are except "citrus". But when I say "citrus", I'm not referring to how ripe citrus fruits smell. I mean this is the essence of the new growth of the tree itself, not the fruit or the flowers. Go smell a newly sprouted twig from a citrus plant, and you'll be smelling the petitgrain of that tree type.

I personally do not think one could reasonably replace neroli with petitgrain if one was seking something that, by itself, smells pleasant throughout it's drydown. Some may disagree with me.

Petitgrain is typically about as long lasting as Neroli.