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Are Pheromones Static?

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  • Are Pheromones Static?

    I discussed this in another thread and thought it was worthy of it's own discussion. Also we don't hafta hijack someone else's topic.

    The research out there isn't entirely clear and some of it is contradictory. One treatise I found IMPLIES that there is a different conversion process based on gender. That is, that men and women are populated with different types of coryneform bacteria and, therefore, convert pheromones differently.

    I found one body of research that discusses pheromone excretion. It stated that Androstadienone is the only one via axillary glands in the arm pits and that others are a result of conversion, while another purports that Androstadienone is converted from Androstadienol. Another body of research implies that Androstadieone is exuded by men and Andtrosadienol by women. It further implies that Androstenols are converted only by women. This contradicts other research that shows that Androstadienone is converted into Adrostenone and subsequently into the Adrostenols. To further complicate matters, it appears that all pheromones begin as Pregnenolone which is converted into Androstadienol, into Androstadienone, into Androstenone, into Alpha or Beta Androsenol.

    I also found a study that states that Androsterone, a metabolite of Testosterone, is excreted via axillary and sebaceous glands. Axillary glands are located in the arm pits and sebaceous glands are associated with hair follicles and, as such, are located in any hairy parts of the body, e.g., scalp, arm pits, groin and chest. I suspect that sebaceous glands may also be known as apocrine glands as they are also located in hairy areas and known to excrete pheromones. There is no mention of Androsterone in the conversion chain and it seems to imply that it is independent thereof. However, I think that this must be an oversight or merely hasn't been studied. I find it hard to believe that Androsterone exists in and of itself.

    I suspect that the gender differences have more to do with the genders focused on in the various research studies and less about the actual nature of conversion itself.

    In many discussions I had over a decade ago with Michael Harris, founder of Androtics, he stated that the nature of conversion is quite complex. Namely, that one pheromone converts into another and then into another and then anothers still, on down the line. He further believes that not only does cross conversion happen, but that it's possible that pheromones can eventually revert back to their original form.

    I can say that, back in the days when I was using strictly oils, things didn't get interesting until they had a chance to "cook" for an hour or two. I believe the situation is different in the case of alcohol bases, i.e., sprays. Alcohol has antiseptic properties and likely kills off the indigenous bacteria on the skin, thereby sterilizing the area of application. As a result you're delaying the conversion process until such time as the skin has a chance to repopulate with coryneform bacteria.

    One thing that has never been discussed is the time frame for purported conversions. Based on my experience, as I previously mentioned, it takes several hours after application. Another thing that is never mentioned is the extent of such conversion. Is it 1%, 10%, 35%? That's anyone's guess.

    As you can see, while it answers some questions, it raises even more. We may never have answers to such questions.

    So my question to the community is have you noticed evidence of suspected conversions? I can't help but think of Ragnar Lothbrook and his pit technique and whether the possibility of Androstenone converting to the Androstenol may have something to do with his ability to use rather high doses successfully at work.

  • #2
    Wow! That's deep man. I appreciate the shot out. It's like I'm a guinea pig, or patient zero. I wish I really knew all the science behind the fun so I could contribute more. Until then I'll keep sprayin.
    I've tried much more, but these are my current, or most used mones:
    Spray- XiSt, Evolve, SOB, Ascend, Celebrity, Cohesion, PSE, P86, P96, P75, P130
    Oil- XiSt, Taboo, Evolve, Ascend, Api, Voodoo

    Comment


    • #3
      In a sense we are all guinea pigs and we all have something to contribute. One doesn't need to know the science to be able to make keen observations. My hope with this thread is to compile user observations regarding potential conversion. When we apply our pheros we don't really think about what happens behind the scenes. But from what I've read so far, there is quite a bit that could be happening.

      I believe things are quite a bit different with exogenous pheromones. Especially with alcohol bases, as I have mentioned. In it's natural state, indigenous pheros are constantly being excreted and converted. I'm certain that individual bacterial populations and hormone production have everything to do with individual pheromone signatures.

      I think that even with oils it's possible to upset that natural balance, that is, when we apply a cover scent we introduce alcohol into the equation. However, I think that even still there is a greater chance of conversion with oils. Even if alcohol from cologne may tend to clear the slate, oils tend to absorb in the skin and comingle with our natural pheros and bacteria. This may have something to do with the belief that oils produce a more "natural" signature. I think that the molecules we apply still tend to stand out, due to the high centration, but may still be going thru the conversion process to some extent.

      However, I still wonder to what extent these exogenous pheros convert. I know that I've experienced Androstenone build up in the past. Knowing now that Androstenone converts to Alpha Androstenol and Beta Androstenol that the conversion process may be slower that one might suspect. Either that or it has do with the high concentrations requiring greater amounts of time to convert. This also seems to be the case with Androstadienone conversion. I've never noticed and Androstenone type hits following it's use, even the next day, despite what I've read about Androstadienone converting to Androstenone.

      One thing I would be curious to know if anyone ever gets Androstenol type hits hours after applying Androstenone. I can't say that I know for sure as I've always used some form of Androstenol to temper my Androstenone applications. But I'd like to hear from those who use straight Androstenone to see if they've ever noticed any signs of conversion. I think that concerns about Androstenone conversion are unfounded as the research seems to show that it converts into the social Androstenols.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Scottie2Hottie View Post
        I discussed this in another thread and thought it was worthy of it's own discussion. Also we don't hafta hijack someone else's topic.

        The research out there isn't entirely clear and some of it is contradictory. One treatise I found IMPLIES that there is a different conversion process based on gender. That is, that men and women are populated with different types of coryneform bacteria and, therefore, convert pheromones differently.

        I found one body of research that discusses pheromone excretion. It stated that Androstadienone is the only one via axillary glands in the arm pits and that others are a result of conversion, while another purports that Androstadienone is converted from Androstadienol. Another body of research implies that Androstadieone is exuded by men and Andtrosadienol by women. It further implies that Androstenols are converted only by women. This contradicts other research that shows that Androstadienone is converted into Adrostenone and subsequently into the Adrostenols. To further complicate matters, it appears that all pheromones begin as Pregnenolone which is converted into Androstadienol, into Androstadienone, into Androstenone, into Alpha or Beta Androsenol.

        I also found a study that states that Androsterone, a metabolite of Testosterone, is excreted via axillary and sebaceous glands. Axillary glands are located in the arm pits and sebaceous glands are associated with hair follicles and, as such, are located in any hairy parts of the body, e.g., scalp, arm pits, groin and chest. I suspect that sebaceous glands may also be known as apocrine glands as they are also located in hairy areas and known to excrete pheromones. There is no mention of Androsterone in the conversion chain and it seems to imply that it is independent thereof. However, I think that this must be an oversight or merely hasn't been studied. I find it hard to believe that Androsterone exists in and of itself.

        I suspect that the gender differences have more to do with the genders focused on in the various research studies and less about the actual nature of conversion itself.

        In many discussions I had over a decade ago with Michael Harris, founder of Androtics, he stated that the nature of conversion is quite complex. Namely, that one pheromone converts into another and then into another and then anothers still, on down the line. He further believes that not only does cross conversion happen, but that it's possible that pheromones can eventually revert back to their original form.

        I can say that, back in the days when I was using strictly oils, things didn't get interesting until they had a chance to "cook" for an hour or two. I believe the situation is different in the case of alcohol bases, i.e., sprays. Alcohol has antiseptic properties and likely kills off the indigenous bacteria on the skin, thereby sterilizing the area of application. As a result you're delaying the conversion process until such time as the skin has a chance to repopulate with coryneform bacteria.

        One thing that has never been discussed is the time frame for purported conversions. Based on my experience, as I previously mentioned, it takes several hours after application. Another thing that is never mentioned is the extent of such conversion. Is it 1%, 10%, 35%? That's anyone's guess.

        As you can see, while it answers some questions, it raises even more. We may never have answers to such questions.

        So my question to the community is have you noticed evidence of suspected conversions? I can't help but think of Ragnar Lothbrook and his pit technique and whether the possibility of Androstenone converting to the Androstenol may have something to do with his ability to use rather high doses successfully at work.
        This is very thought provoking indeed! Now I have a lot more questions in my head than I want to have

        Comment


        • #5
          Sorry KateD I tried to do my best to explain things as clearly as possible.

          Comment


          • KateD
            KateD commented
            Editing a comment
            That is not it at all, you did a great job in explaining something like that. I just never came across this info before

          • Scottie2Hottie
            Scottie2Hottie commented
            Editing a comment
            Oh ok. I thought I had confused you.

        • #6
          First of all, the many conversations (back and forth) depend on the enzymes present in a certain tissue. Not all tissues express the same enzymes. It then depends on ratios and quantities of these enzymes, which are often competitive. What MHarris likely meant is not the conversion of pheromones via microbiotia-induced reactions but the within the body.
          As of today, it is not not fasible to assume we know enough to understnd the intricate actions of hormonal conversion within cells - there are too many holes and unproven paradigmas underlying the theories. Hormones act on and in the cells and its organelles, not only at receptor sites as most sceintists and doctors still proclaim while proven otherwise.

          Androsterone is more closely related to DHT than to Testosterone, though there are enzymatic pathways from both substrates that result in Rone. Rone undergoes back and forth conversation with DHT in ceratin tissues continueosly.

          It's also unfeasibke that only women or men would "exude" certain metaboltes like dienol or the nols .... Men produce dienol an nol all the time, the latter especialy in fatty-tissues. Surey they undergo conjugation and excretion via the skin and breath.

          Comment


          • #7
            GorchFock Good to see you, thanks for contributing.

            No these conversations were about EXTERNAL conversion. It happens on the surface of the skin and is the result of bacterial activity.

            Comment


            • #8
              Well I guess this topic was a waste of time.

              Comment


              • #9
                Scottie2Hottie

                One thing I knew was that the conversion is done by the bacteria on the skin, thus producing body odor.
                Well, I can only add one practical thing-
                Most of the sports dedicated deoderants like Nike, Adidas, etc have disinfectant ingredients that do not allow bacteria to work(or kill them) for almost whole day.
                Idea would be to try the deo and then phero spray or oil on it. Underarms or wherever.

                Disinfecting the skin with cotton ball soaked in surgical alcohol before phero application especially for oils, is another idea that comes to my mind.

                Ofcourse if we want to test the results from no conversion.

                Comment


                • #10
                  I didn't know that about those deodorants. Are they stick or spray. Spray would be feasible on non-underarm areas. If they are scented tho it would hafta be strong enough to cover the synthetic pheros or weak enough as to not clash with a cover scent. I've always avoided applying mones to my arm pits for two reasons. One being conversion knowing there is a high concentration of coryneform bacteria there. The other is greatly reduced diffusion.

                  An alcohol swab is a good idea in conjunction with oils tho. Of course, we don't hafta worry about that with alcohol based sprays.

                  As far as specific conversions, or even general for the matter, there simply isn't enough research to shed much light. There is some empirical evidence in certain cases, as I've mentioned previously, but we're still pretty much in the dark. This I especially true of endogenous putatives. Obviously synthetic putatives had to have their origin somewhere or no one would have ever bothered with them in the first place. Where the impetus lies is unknown to me. What few scientific resources I could find are very limited. I do remember Michael Harris mentioning where a particular molecule falls in the metabolic chain being a factor in exploring them but what his sources were is unknown.

                  Thanks for your input. I greatly appreciate you contributing.

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Originally posted by Scottie2Hottie View Post
                    I didn't know that about those deodorants. Are they stick or spray......
                    Thanks for your input. I greatly appreciate you contributing.
                    They are sprays. They contain various forms of alcohol and gasses. They have well rounded fragrances, not too hard to interfere other perfumes. But the smells last whole day. So this thing can work as cover too. Lately I found the same about Old Spice deodarant sprays also.
                    Arm pits, chest, lower belly, lower neck, groin, many areas to test.

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Well I know that Axe is using new technology to make the scent of their body sprays last for 48 hrs. Perhaps Old Spice is using it too.

                      I've found that because of this new technology of you use Axe as a cover you have to spray it first before applying pheros. If you do it the other way around the Axe prevents diffusion.

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Originally posted by Scottie2Hottie View Post
                        Well I know that Axe is using ....................

                        the Axe prevents diffusion.
                        Never tried it but The same thing here with Axe. First disinfect the skin with deo, then aply pheros, and we get the bonus of its fragrance cover and a piggyback defusion.

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          I don't get piggyback diffusion from Axe. It always blunts a mix, even if I apply the Axe first.

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            I thought I would revive this thread given that conversion was a recent topic in another thread. Feel free to contribute or use it for informational purposes.

                            Comment


                            • #16
                              Great topic for newbie to understand more into the mone science. Thank you.

                              Comment


                              • #17
                                Bloodburn You're welcome. I think it's important to have a basic understanding of what is taking place AFTER we apply our pheros. We tend to think (and I did too) that we apply them and that's it. That it's the end of the story when actually it's the beginning.

                                Comment


                                • #18
                                  Originally posted by Scottie2Hottie View Post

                                  I can say that, back in the days when I was using strictly oils, things didn't get interesting until they had a chance to "cook" for an hour or two. I believe the situation is different in the case of alcohol bases, i.e., sprays. Alcohol has antiseptic properties and likely kills off the indigenous bacteria on the skin, thereby sterilizing the area of application. As a result you're delaying the conversion process until such time as the skin has a chance to repopulate with coryneform bacteria.
                                  hmm, so are you saying you prefer spray to oil based pheros.
                                  If your hypothesis is right the extra 2 hrs the oil give you in lasting time is irrelevant.

                                  Comment


                                  • #19
                                    Originally posted by Prettyrickyboi View Post

                                    hmm, so are you saying you prefer spray to oil based pheros.
                                    If your hypothesis is right the extra 2 hrs the oil give you in lasting time is irrelevant.
                                    Given my current needs sprays suit me best. I think oils have their place but would be a waste in my typical situations. Oils do give greater longevity in theory but you must also consider what's happening during that time. Conversion is going to take place. Is that a bad thing? Who really knows? As I said things got interesting after my pheros cooked for awhile. It certainly didn't hinder things in clubs. I tend to think that with sprays you get a more "pure" signature. I'm sure conversion eventually takes place but at a much more diminished rate. But when you get right down to it no one knows at what rate conversion takes place in any given scenario. I have hypotheses but no way to test them other than experientially.

                                    Comment


                                    • #20
                                      Xist in oil has lasted me something like 3 years. Xist spray was gone in a month. Significant savings, monetarily-speaking, in oil format. I also feel Xist oil is far superior to the spray, though I can't say the same for every oil. SOB, in particular, does not seem to hold up to its spray counterpart.

                                      Comment

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